In an exclusive interview with Arvind Navika Kumar, Group Editor, Times Network and Editor In Chief, Times Now Navbharat, Delhi Chief Minister, Kejriwal claims that this time his party’s government is going to be formed in Punjab.
Pls see below the interview transcript.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mr, Arvind Kejriwal, you are CM of Delhi but currently you are a contender in at least 4 poll bound states. What is your idea behind it? Is the slogan ‘Cong mukt Bharat’ not only of BJP but also yours?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, we don’t have anything to do with any other party or the Neta. Our aim is that the good work which has been done in Delhi like the improved infrastructure of schools, hospitals, corruption-free govt, honest govt, free electricity, should be provided to the entire country. So, either the other parties shall provide it or the people of other states will call us.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Arvind Kejriwal ji, in all these 4 states…if we speak about Uttar Pradesh, of 403 you have already fielded 377 candidates, you are a contender in Uttarakhand… because there is an ongoing infighting in Congress, the same story is in Punjab, so as per estimates AAP may stand a good chance in the upcoming elections. In Goa also you can be seen leading amongst the opposition faces, and we know how previous govts have been formed in the state of Goa, the suspense always looms till the end, so in all of these 4 states, what do you think, where AAP may have a good fortune?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Fighting an election is a different thing. Aam Aadmi Party and Delhi govt’s goodwill has spread its wings in the entire country, we are ruling each individual’s heart, but since we’re a new party we do not have our organisation everywhere. To fight elections you need organisation, even at booth levels you need workers if you want to convert your goodwill into votes. So, I feel that we will form a govt in Punjab definitely, if we go by survey then we feel confident of forming govt in Punjab, at some places we expect to perform spectacularly well, at some places we will try to make inroads. Sometimes the journey is long but to begin that journey one needs to take those initial steps.
NAVIKA KUMAR: The journey is not that long but I want to ask you, when you formed your party, we have been following you since the times of ‘India against corruption’, we have spent our days in Ramlila maidan during those times. You said, then, that you will bring a different political system, but if I specifically talk about Punjab then there are many candidates who quit Congress and joined you, some left Akali Dal and joined AAP, what is this new experiment about? Who are these people whom you talked about picking from the society and providing a good politics? Who are these old people?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Tell me one party in this entire nation which says ‘vote for us and we will build schools for you’. Not even one party is there. Does the BJP and the Cong say this? They don’t because they didn’t make schools, Tell me one party in this entire nation which says ‘vote for us and we will build good hospitals for you’. No party says. Let any party say that ‘vote for us and we will form an honest govt, we will give 24-hrs electricity’, no one says this. Only AAP says this. Our aim is to make difference in the lives of the common people. For the first time, a party has come in the country which talks about electricity, water, roads, schools, hospitals. As far as you mentioned about some leaders in Punjab, see, it is not like that in every party each person is wrong or is corrupt, some are good also, these people were unheard there, they felt suffocated there. I always say that you people didn’t have a choice earlier. In other parties where there is good people, they are feeling suffocated, they are leaving those parties and joining us.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So, you have started liking the people of other parties….
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Some people are there who joined earlier as well, in 2013 elections also we had new joiners, but if we take a broader view then in Punjab, we have given tickets to our volunteers at large scale.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But I want to ask that amongst the other people whom you have started liking, Modi ji is one of them?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: As I said, I do not have enmity with any other party or neat. The country is Infront of my eyes. If today these grand old parties, like Congress & the BJP would have done some good work then our party’s need wouldn’t have arise. We are not netas, we don’t know how to do politics, we were having a good time at home…
NAVIKA KUMAR: Our nation is huge, anyone can get the opportunity
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We didn’t come here to build my career, we have not come here to get power by doing politics, we just want to work for the country
NAVIKA KUMAR: So, you are not fighting for the power in the elections?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: See, we have to fight for power because…for example, I was in Goa recently. There I said that ‘today the people of Delhi are so happy with our governance that if someday any new party tries to make inroads, then the people of Delhi will say, no, we are happy with our Kejriwal, you leave, you are not needed here’. Had Pramod Sawant done a good work in Goa, had the BJP done good work in Uttarakhand, then the people would have asked us to leave saying that they do not need us. These parties didn’t leave any stone unturned to loot the people. So, these people want a change. A word is trending in Goa- ‘badalzaye’, meaning ‘we want change’, so why do they need the change? Because they just looted, looted and looted and did nothing else.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Both the BJP and the Congress are looteri parties?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: What did they do in Goa? If you ask people that in the last 5 years what did the BJP do here, they say the BJP did labour scam, kachra scam, job scam, power scam, ventilator scam, oxygen scam. Nothing else apart from this.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But these accusations have also been levied upon you
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Tell me
NAVIKA KUMAR: Recently the PM said in the parliament that during the pandemic, both the Maharashtra and the Delhi govts instigated the migrant labourers, asking them to leave Delhi, we cannot forget the what happened at Anand Vihar bus terminal wherein people gathered in large numbers. So, the BJP also puts allegations on you likewise…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: The PM lied about it.
NAVIKA KUMAR: PM Modi lied about it?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Yes, PM lied. PM lied in the parliament; it doesn’t look good. I should not say more than this.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Since you are not commenting much about this, in 2019, you took PM’s name around 50 times in your tweets, speeches…but after 2019, you are trying to save yourself, you don’t take upon PM Modi directly…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I have stopped speaking against everyone, I don’t speak against Rahul Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, PM Modi…I do not have enmity with anyone, I just know how to work, I don’t know how to do politics. I will do work
NAVIKA KUMAR: So was it wrong when you used to talk about them earlier?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Leave that..
NAVIKA KUMAR: Raat gayi, baat gayi…?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I have decided that I won’t hold any grudge against anyone, I have my country infront of me, when we participated in Anna Hazare movement we fought for the country, we want to bring changes in the nation, and our experience of last 7 years tells us that the country can change. We work for all people across religious lines- Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian. We build schools, there students from across religious lines come and study, we do not differentiate, we do not work against anyone, we bring the nation together, we love everyone equally and we need to make the India of the 21st century
NAVIKA KUMAR: If you work across religious lines then I want to ask, Sunil Jhakhar says that a campaign has been launched against him because he is a Hindu and not Sikh and that is why the Congress didn’t make him the CM face, so you and Raghav Chadha stand in support of him, on the other hand you yourself announced that you will make choose a Sikh for CM face. Why differentiate? Can’t a Hindu be a CM in Punjab?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, they can. We chose an open call for this, we started a telephone line.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But you said only a Sikh will be chosen as a CM face
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: But then we opened a telephone line, we left it to public, we said whosoever you want…
NAVIKA KUMAR: So in that your name didn’t come?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: In that call, Navika Kumar’s name could also have propped up, had you been chosen then I would have come to your channel and talked to your editor to free you so that we can make you the CM face..
NAVIKA KUMAR: No, I didn’t apply for the post
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Anyone’s name could have come, no one needed to apply…
NAVIKA KUMAR: But you had a long list of applicants…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Applicants were not there, we told the people of Punjab that whosoever you want to be your CM, put his/her name. They could have taken anyone’s name
NAVIKA KUMAR: So today you reveal that how many took your name
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I wasn’t there, I announced…
NAVIKA KUMAR: Why? There is a proper campaign running under the name ‘Ab ki baar Kejriwal’.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, the campaign is running under the name of Kejriwal but Kejriwal is Delhi’s CM and he won’t leave Delhi.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Then why the campaign is not running under the name of Bhagwant Mann since he has been chosen as the CM face.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, the campaign is running under his name too since the announcement has been made. Now in all the campaigns, both mine and his name is there.
NAVIKA KUMAR: In 2014, you got a good share of voting percentage in Punjab. In 2017, it got reduced. Rather in 2017, you got 2 seats and in 2019, it got reduced by 7%. Of 20 seats which you got, half of your MLAs left you, I want to us that the party you are eying to form there, what’s the guarantee that your vote percentage will get increased, what exceptional thing are you doing except the freebies that you are offering- like Rs 1000 will be credited to the bank accounts of Women, free electricity & water – which is your formula
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Your survey predicts that we are likely to win in the state.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Yes the survey does predict that but…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Whatever we are doing, we trust your channel
NAVIKA KUMAR: But let me tell you that in Punjab there is a deficit of Rs 2,82,000 Cr. So how will you be able to provide these freebies? How will you finance these?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: You tell me, where did this amount of Rs 2,82,000 Cr go?
NAVIKA KUMAR: Congress and Akali Dal will tell this
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Yes, you said it right. In the last 40-50 years, no new school was built in Punjab. No new hospital was built, no new college was contructed, no new university was built, no new dispensary, roads were built, so where did this amount of Rs 2,82,000 Cr go when they didn’t do any work? All of this amount went to their pockets.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you will extract this money from their pockets?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: So all of these..
NAVIKA KUMAR: For freebies..
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I am coming to that point, it went to their Swiss bank…These politicians have built so many properties. One boy met me and said sir you ask them to tell how much of wealth do they uphold in total….he said that they can’t even calculate that. In Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, America, god knows how many properties they have purchased there. We will put an end to this, we need to put an end to this loot. You end this loot and Punjab….they money which is going towards Swiss Bank needs to be relocated to the janta of Punjab….There is no money crisis…Okay, tell me, the allegation of ‘freebie’ which they levy against me, I am improving the situation of govt schools in Delhi, we have improved their situation, there children of poor study and we give free education to them, can there be any greater task of nation building than this? I am improving the infrastructure of govt hospitals, their situation has also improved a lot, people get free medicines, free test facility, free operation is there. Can there be a greater work of religion than this? Then tell me what wrong am I doing? They say why do we give free electricity to people. All the big politicians get 3000-4000 units of electricity free, on whose expense do they avail it? Your money. If I am giving you 300 units of electricity free to you on your expense then they have an issue with it. If they get free electricity on your expense then they do not have any issue with that. The debt which has been raised is not because of our freebies, it is not because of giving Rs 1000 to women. All of the freebie announcements made by us hardly makes a total of Rs 10,000 Cr- Rs 12,000 Cr. This amount can be easily raised if they put an end to illegal sand mining.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Despite the allegations of illegal sand mining and others, Charanjit Singh Channi has been chosen as the CM face of Congress in the state. On the other hand, raids are happening on his nephew, so people allege that during time of elections agencies come in between. You also alleged Channi govt of illegal sand mining. So shall these agencies not investigate these allegations?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: See, there are two things in this. This I believe by myself that the current BJP-led central govt is vindictive, they misuse the power of agencies, raids are not happening against the real culprits and frauds, the raids are happening only under the guise of a political vendetta. These raids happened against me as well, all kinds of raids have been conducted against me but they didn’t find anything. I didn’t shout ‘why did they come’. Raids happened at Charanjit Singh’s residence, I believe that it was a part of political vendetta, they have spoken a lot against PM Modi and that’s why the raids were conducted, but when raids happened, cash stash was found. So why are they shouting? On what basis are they shouting? I am not shouting, rather I am saying come and conduct raids against at my residence. I do not have any fear, I didn’t do any robbery. Okay, raids happened because vendetta but why was the cash lying there? Such huge amount of money in just 111 days…I was thinking they could have waited for at least 111 days. He knew that he will be the CM again. They surprised us in just 111 days, it seems that they are addicted.
NAVIKA KUMAR: When it comes about addiction then people raise questions over you as well, they are known as ‘Pegwant Mann’ also. In 2015, after Faridkot blast, when he was on stage the granti sahab said that he is drunk, remove him from the stage. However he is trying to bring a reform, but people do raise such questions so how shall they trust you
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: When Bhagwant Mann was declared the AAP CM face, that day Channi sahab called a team of 50 people. He tasked those people with extracting details about Bhagwant Mann and all his doings in the last 48 years. Sukhbir Badal also called a team of 50 people to find something against Bhagwant Mann. Both of them worked day and night for 4 days, and after that they could find only 3 videos of him. The video showed him drunk. Those are very old videos. This means that Bhagwant Mann is a true and honest person. He is MP from last 7 years and no one could find anything against him. So even Bhagwant Mann has come with a certificate with Channi and Sukhbir sahab that he is the most honest person. Even after being a MP for last 7 years, he didn’t steal a single rupee.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Drinking is not a big deal?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Those are very old videos
NAVIKA KUMAR: But he…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Bhagwant has changed a lot.
NAVIKA KUMAR: He swore earlier as well but he didn’t change
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Show me any video of his from last 3-4 years
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you are confident…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: You listen to this interviews…
NAVIKA KUMAR: Do you expect a good governance from him?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: He has a vision for Punjab. You listen in to all three interviews that of Channi sahab, Sukhbhir Sahab and Bhagwant Mann. Bhagwant gives a hope to Punjab. His words show us a ray of hope. Upon listening to Channi sahab and Sukhbir sahab’s video you just hear abuses.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Channi sahab also says that he (Bhagwant Mann) took 3 years to pass 12th standard and I (Channi) am a doctorate
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Then it is a good thing, he is a doctorate in which subject? In illegal sand mining?
NAVIKA KUMAR: But the question is that a Dalit contender, Charanjit Singh Channi, in whose support the Congress did not even choose Navjot Singh Sidhu, Rahul Gandhi even came and announced it, do you think caste can be a factor? Because there is a larger section of Dalits in Punjab and Dalit face is a winning card for the Congress party. Do you feel this?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I don’t think that people will vote for him because he is a Dalit. But still today, I want to appeal to the Dalit community of Punjab via your channel that when you go to cast your vote, you think about Baba Saheb Ambedkar. Baba Saheb Ambedkar said that each and every child of this country shall get best education. Today, AAP is fulfilling the dream of Baba Saheb Ambedkar. On one hand there is Channi Saheb who belongs to your community, on the other hand there is AAP which is fulfilling the dream of Baba Saheb Ambedkar. Remember Baba Saheb Ambedkar, close your eyes and think had Baba Saheb Ambedkar been here today then who would he have voted for- Channi sahab or AAP? You will get the answer. Vote only for that party.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mr Kejriwal, what do you have to say about law & order in Punjab? This question is being raised on your party too saying that Punjab is a border state, the way there was a lapse in PM’s security, his convoy stranded over the flyover for about 20 mins, such questions are being raised on the AAP…that when it comes to national security then AAP’s qualification to rule a state like Punjab may be questionable.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: When we fought elections for the first time they said that they don’t know how to run the govt. In 2013, remember? The BJP and the Cong mocked us, they said we don’t know how to run the govt, we are anarchist, we just know how to hold dharnas, we have shown them the best govt of the country, in the last 75 years, no one has run such a glorious govt.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But you too have changed
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: So change can happen right
NAVIKA KUMAR: You stopped holding dharnas
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We change for situation, we change as per the demand of the country, we run as per the country. As far as Punjab being a border state is concerned, PM is a PM of a country, his security is crucial, politics cannot be played over that in no situation, doesn’t matter which party is in the rule in any state or Centre, politics cannot be played over that. The kind of politics that was being played over PM’s security lapse is condemnable.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Do you think it was deliberate?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: The state govt which can play politics over PM’s security, means, is not right for the people. Currently, the Channi govt is not suitable. The way we have been hearing about it since last 3-4 months, drugs are being smuggled from across border, every day we get to hear about tiffin bomb or spotting of drones, recently there was a bomb blast in Ludhiana, so Channi govt has failed completely. 2 qualifications are needed to handle the security. One, we need a party in whose heart India resides, they party which doesn’t play dirty politics like the kind being played upon PM’s security lapse. If you have a look over Delhi then you will see that we never played politics over national issues. Second thing which is needed is- honesty. If the state govt in the border state is unscrupulous, it is a govt of illegal sand mining then they will take bribe from drug smugglers too, they will take bribe from those who will bring bomb as well. The Bombay blast which happened, how did the RDX come? It is being said that some of the officials of customs department allowed it and took a bribe for it. If your govt is dishonest then it a big threat to nation’s security. AAP is an honest party. AAP is most suitable for national security.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Many of your leaders are facing legal cases, so..
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: On whom?
NAVIKA KUMAR: Many Delhi leaders are facing legal cases
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Like?
NAVIKA KUMAR: Satyendar Jain, etc…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Satyendar Jain is facing a 2007 legal case…when he was an architect…and after that the cases which have been slapped, first of all there is no case of fraud against us, but all of them which were slapped got eventually quashed after going to court. Some of the cases are even running against me. They conducted raids against me, however, I think they couldn’t frame any case against me, they conducted raids against me and all of them got failed.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you think all of this a political gimmick?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Yes, see I say this repeatedly, come and conduct raids at my house. We are not afraid, even if it is for political vengeance. Just a few days ago we got to know that ED is going to do raids at Satyendar Jain’s residence. I welcomed the agency to come and conduct raids, even before Punjab elections
NAVIKA KUMAR: You get to know before hand about the raids?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: See, when you perform well then naturally help comes to you. Everywhere you have friends.
NAVIKA KUMAR: In the last elections, you performed exceptionally well in Malwa region but I guess the performance was not up to the mark in the Majha region. In the Doaba region, it is being said that the Dalit community has a lot of influence. So, out of these 3 regions where are you pinning high hopes?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I saw your survey and as per that, you predicted our win in all of those 3 seats.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Malwa is rural. How is it happening that in both rural and urban combination you are getting support in the survey. Vote will be given when the voting day will come that is Feb 20.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Every election is fought on hope. After running the govt for 7 yrs in Delhi, when I go to Punjab , Goa, Uttarakhand today, be it any remote area, people say 3 things to me- that sir you have made excellent schools in Delhi, please improve their situation here too, you have improved the condition of hospitals in Delhi, do it here as well. You are giving free electricity in Delhi, do it here as well. So people have a hope that this person performed in Delhi and he will work here too. So be it the urban people of Punjab, they also need hospitals, schools, electricity. They have a hope that this person worked and proved in Delhi, he will work here too, one chance must be given to him.
NAVIKA KUMAR: You think that it is the simplicity which you carry, and the changes which you have brought…like recently Channi saheb called you a ‘kala angrez’ of AAP…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: He abuses me on a daily basis. When I visit Punjab I say that if voted to power we will built schools in the state, he insults me saying that Kejriwal is an outsider. He repeatedly says that Kejriwal is an outsider, Kejriwal is an outsider, and then they say that Imran Khan is a good person. They have a love for Pakistan, they call Pak PM Imran Khan their brother. Pakistan, which sends terrorists on our land, Pakistan which smuggles drugs into Punjab, Pakistan which sends tiffin bomb and drones into Punjab, that Pakistan appears to be a big brother to them. Kejriwal who speaks about building schools and hospitals, they say that Kejriwal is a bad person, his clothes are weary, he is black, he is an outsider, etc.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Such things were also being said for Modi ji in Bengal that he is an outsider and he has come to Bengal, why there is such kind of politics in our country?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Ask them who say it
NAVIKA KUMAR: The kind of language that is being used while doing politics, is it right? Recently a twitter spat erupted between you and CM Yogi as well. ‘Suno Kejriwal, suno Yogi…’
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, it isn’t good. People don’t like it, this is not good. Be it PM, CM Yogi or myself, people have chosen us and have given us a responsible position. People don’t want their leaders to indulge in bickering, accusations, tu tu-mai mai all day long. People want us to work together irrespective of party lines. It is unfortunate, Yogi ji tweeted something and I answered back in his own language. It ended for me there, now I do not want to indulge in any kind spat with him.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Your heart got changed because you went and slept in the CM’s room.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Will do anything and everything for my people as per the requirements. I will hold dharna for my people’s rights even today if needed. If they will give respect they will get it in return, if they will abuse us then we can also answer in the same language. But I think this is very unfortunate and I do not want to meddle in between. I answered him back and I said the very next day that I do not want to indulge in any kind of spat with him. Let’s talk about work now.
NAVIKA KUMAR: AAP is marching on the path where they have a desire to become a national alternative.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We don’t want to become a national alternative. We have only one national ambition that is to eliminate corruption from the country, and the situation of schools, hospitals and the facility of electricity water- which is the basic need, must improve. In the last 7 years we have proved that it is possible. The BJP and the Congress kept us in the poor state deliberately since the last 70 years….they kept the population illiterate purposely, if we can improve this in just 7 years then why they could not do it in the last 70 years? So either they do it or the Janta will call us.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you are saying that the schemes brought by the BJP like- PM Awas Yojana, PM kalyan yojana, Ayushmann Bharat- these are not reaching the public?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Where is it benefitting the people? Today Ayushmann Bharat has become one of the biggest scams of India. Had Ayushmann Bharat been successful then will the bodies would have been found floating in the U.P? Why the people couldn’t avail the benefits of these schemes?
NAVIKA KUMAR: They say that this is a tradition that they leave bodies on the ground and then they eventually get dissolved in the water…this is the clarification by them
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Everyone knows the truth
NAVIKA KUMAR: You started your journey of U.P by visiting Ayodhya, has soft Hindutva also become an election tool for you?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: What is the harm in visiting Ayodhya? Have you been there?
NAVIKA KUMAR: I have been there
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: How much peace do you get there, so won’t you tell people to visit Ayodhya as well.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But before elections?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I visited Ayodhya many months before elections….it has been 6-7 months…
NAVIKA KUMAR: You went in October
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Why are they cursing me?
NAVIKA KUMAR: You went in October
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Why are they cursing me? Why are they so perturbed?
NAVIKA KUMAR: Everyone says that whatever BJP does…at least Rahul Gandhi says BJP isn’t Hindu but Hindutva. But when it comes to others, he doesn’t see Hindutva. So, I want to ask you that this Ayodhya, visiting temples and Kashi Vishwanath- Is this Hindutva or Hinduism?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I don’t know what it is. I don’t understand too much of intellectual talks.
NAVIKA KUMAR: What Rahul Gandhi talks is intellectual?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I did not understand what he said and I don’t want to get into it. People want good education for their kids, jobs for their children, good medical treatment facilities, electricity supply, water supply, food, clothing and a roof on their head. And people want to go on a pilgrimage after saving money for a few years. They go along with their families- some go to Vaishno Devi, some to Ayodhya. People have different beliefs. In Delhi, we send people on pilgrimage and it is for people of all religions.
(We arrange pilgrimage visits to) Dwarka ji, Shirdi baba, Rameshwaram, Puri, Haridwar, Rishikesh, Mathura, Vrindavan, Ayodhya, Ajmer Sharif for Muslim brothers, Velankanni Church for Christian brothers. We send AC buses, make the pilgrims stay in AC hotels, and everything from travel to food to boarding is free. We have so far arranged pilgrimage tour for 40,000 people.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Is this secularism? Because state cannot be involved in any religion. This is the definition of secularism.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: When they return via train…I go to drop them, and (receive them) when they return. You accompany me sometime when I receive them. There is joy on their faces. You ask them the definition of secularism. I don’t know.
NAVIKA KUMAR: No but this liberal India…Rahul Gandhi says there are two Indias.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: It looks like you are very much influenced by Rahul Gandhi
NAVIKA KUMAR: He is in opposition in your state, and in opposition to BJP in several other states. Congress is still the biggest opposition party in the country.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I am denying it. I haven’t spoken against Rahul Gandhi.
NAVIKA KUMAR: When we don’t talk about opposition, you raise an objection.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: You talk about people. He has nothing to do with the people.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But you are the ones in government and responsible for governance. So, definitions have to be asked from those who rule.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: People of the country want good education, good hospitals, good treatment facilities, proper power supply, proper water supply. All this we are giving. Whatever Rahul is saying, he can continue with it. Everyone is free to speak their mind.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But don’t you think that there is a problem involving secularism in this?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I don’t see any problem. We should do what people want and get happiness from. But we shouldn’t spread hate, and promote animosity. People shouldn’t be made to fight each other. Governments have the duty to provide people what they want.
NAVIKA KUMAR: You are also fighting polls in Uttarakhand. Congress was the main opposition there. Are you hoping to displace Congress or the ruling BJP in the state?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We have given people of Uttarakhand an agenda. Uttarakhand and goa…We’ll also come to Punjab…It’s really interesting. We gave guarantees there, asking them to vote for us for better schools, better hospitals, benefits to women and better job opportunities. But Congress doesn’t seem to have any agenda. BJP also doesn’t have an agenda.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Uttarakhand CM has talked about BJP’s agenda today, (promising) Uniform Civil Code.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: So is this their agenda? Let people decide that whether they want better hospitals, schools, proper electricity & water supply, or what the BJP is offering. Congress is saying that BJP has ruled for 5 years, so give them the chance so that they can carry out loot now. Dhami ji is saying he has been in office for just 6 months, and that he should be given more time. These parties have nothing to offer except to carry out loot.
NAVIKA KUMAR: You are accusing Dhami ji of loot.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I am basically accusing the BJP. I would not want to level allegations on any individual. I am saying that BJP and Congress have no agenda to take the country forward.
NAVIKA KUMAR: You cite any specific instance….
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I am telling them that they should improve schools in their states.
NAVIKA KUMAR: No, you levelled charges of loot. Can you substantiate your allegations?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I gave you an example of Goa where I went.
In Uttarakhand, they changed 3 chief ministers. Why did they change? Because BJP itself is saying that their previous CMs were corrupt, were not fit to govern and had destroyed Uttarakhand.
They were corrupt. What can be the bigger scam? There have been many scams. I don’t remember the details right now.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Now, Dhami ji has raked up the issue of Uniform Civil Code.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I don’t know what he has said.
NAVIKA KUMAR: He has tweeted.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I didn’t read it. I came straight here and was busy in meetings since morning.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But do you think Uniform Civil Code can be an issue in this election?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: His remarks come when just 48 hours are left for polling. But this is their sole focus. They talk about Hindu-Muslim issues whenever there are elections. If you had worked in last 5 years, you would not have to rely on these issues. You didn’t work and that’s why you need these issues to hide your failures.
NAVIKA KUMAR: How many seats are you hoping to win in Uttarakhand? Will you be able to come to power?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We will win good number of seats. Both the parties have no agenda. We have presented such a good agenda. We have a history of good work in Delhi. People will decide.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But do you think that you will occupy the opposition space first before you become a challenger?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Let’s see what the results are.
NAVIKA KUMAR: What about Uttar Pradesh?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We are entering U.P, fighting for the first time. It’s a big state and not an easy one to contest in. Big parties are already in existence there. If I say that we will form the government, it won’t be a responsible statement. But we have entered, because we had to one day or the other.
NAVIKA KUMAR: There is also this question that you were born out of a certain movement….People say that a lot of money is needed to contest elections. This is perception of the common man. You are going to so many states and money is needed to fight polls.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Not much money is needed for hoardings and campaigning. Money is needed when you distribute liquor, and cash. But we don’t do all this and therefore we don’t spend much during polls.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So, you can expand across the country…..
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: People support us. Whichever state we go to, we get donations from the people and their time too.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Gujarat and Himachal polls are also due towards year end. Will you have a presence in these polls?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Certainly, we will fight.
NAVIKA KUMAR: In Goa, it is said that regardless of who wins elections, the one who has money forms the government.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Be direct and say that BJP forms the government regardless of who wins the polls. BJP is roaming around and boasting that they will form the government even if they have just 8 MLAs.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Who said this?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: People from the BJP. When you talk to their workers on the lower level, they say that they will form the government. When we ask them how, they say they will buy MLAs from Congress.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Won’t any of the AAP MLAs go? You have even made your candidates take a pledge.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: So far, no one has left us. They tried hard even in Delhi.
NAVIKA KUMAR: In Punjab, some of your people left the party.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: 2-3 people left because they were denied tickets.
NAVIKA KUMAR: I am talking about the previous instance.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Nobody left the party. There was a rebellion within the party but they stayed in the party. They left just now when they couldn’t get a ticket as survey reports were not in their favour.
NAVIKA KUMAR:TMC has made an entry. Congress is already there in Goa. AAP has also worked hard in Goa in past few years. Do you think that anti-BJP space is dividing the votes?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: There is no anti-BJP or pro-BJP space. Let’s take the example of Delhi. Whose votes do you think we have cut?
NAVIKA KUMAR: Both the parties.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: That’s it.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But Delhi is a place of overwhelming….
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: In Uttarakhand, BJP is openly saying that AAP is cutting their votes. In Goa, both BJP and Congress have this fear. So, these talks of anti-BJP space is nothing but arithmetic. There is chemistry at play in elections too. When people like someone by heart, it can happen with both the BJP and the Congress voters.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So, you are the Bollywood’s latest heartthrob that everyone is giving you their hearts?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We are not a heartthrob, but our work is. We don’t look very handsome, but wherever we go, people tell us that we have improved schools, hospitals, status of power supply and they want the same in their region. Our work speaks.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But people also say more than the work, your focus is on advertising it widely. This is the charge levelled against you often.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: There is nothing wrong with this. Everyone should advertise their work. When we work for people, we proudly say we have done it. They don’t work and hence raise Hindu-Muslim issues all the time.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mr Kejriwal, you’ve changed so much since India against Corruption
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: A human being changes every moment, every second. I do Vipasana, I meditate. In that they teach us that I am sitting right now but the Kejriwal of the next moment is going to be a completely different person. Atoms keep changing so the person also changes every moment. We change for the country. Today if the country’s demand is that we should protest then we’ll protest. If the country wants us to get into administration then we’ll do that, if they want governance then we’ll do that.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mamata Banerjee is campaigning for Akhilesh Yadav in Uttar Pradesh. You think opposition leaders to stick together and challenge? Becuase lots of opposition parties say that the BJP is on one side the the opposition should unite and stand together against the BJP. Do you agree with this theory?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I don’t understand this politics. I can’t do politics. I don’t understand this arithmetic. If you tell me Mr Kejriwal, make schools for us then I’ll do it. I can deliver. You want me to build hospitals, I’ll do that.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Without understanding politics you couldn’t have reached here Mr Kejriwal? Why are you being so humble and humility and..
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I’m here on the basis of my work. If I had to do the same politics of ensure his loss and someone else’s victory, I can’t understand all that.
NAVIKA KUMAR: If BJP is in power you are saying they haven’t worked and only you have worked
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: In this country, the one who puts an agenda in front of people, he will win. Win and loss are in the hands of the people in this country. We are a democracy. Leave that to them. How will you take the country forward? What can you do for one family, what kind of ease can you provide them, the one who has this agenda will be accepted by the people of this country. If you say that we have come to defeat this party and that party, it doesn’t work. That’s the job of the people in this country, in our democracy.
NAVIKA KUMAR: But BJP is in power in so many states, at the centre where they won elections twice.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: The people of this country must have liked them, so chose them.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So they must have done something right?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I don’t know. People decide, they will answer.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So, you can’t see what they’ve done right?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Why should I look at it? Ask the people of this country. Such could be the case that people had no such alternative. Like in Delhi, earlier there were only 2 parties, Congress and BJP. So if you say that Sheila Dikshit ran a government for 15 years so must be good, then you can’t say that. It was a government riddled with scams like CWG. There was no alternative. As soon as there was an alternative, Delhi voted for us. So it could be just about not having a good alternative, the ones that are available they are not liked by the people. That could also be the case.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mamata Banerjee has made a claim on the national level that because the Congress can’t win elections, they should step aside as the fulcrum of the opposition and the TMC should take that place. Do you agree?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Like I said, I don’t understand all this. Talk to me about the issues that will take this country forward, I am ready. If someone asks how to take the health and education sector in this country to the 21st century, I am ready to discuss that. This arithmetic I don’t understand and this arithmetic can never take this country forward.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mr Kejriwal, do you think these election results and the momentum these elections will give have an impact on 2024 general elections?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Like I said, in the 2024 general elections, people will pick those who present a plan in front of them. A plan that is believable for the progress of this country, and one that betters people’s lives. People will vote for that person or party or group that they have faith in.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mr Arvind Kejriwal, at the end of this interview I want to do a little rapid fire…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Please don’t do this, it scares me…
NAVIKA KUMAR: You are not one to get scared…
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Okay, let’s try…
NAVIKA KUMAR: I’ll give you 2 options from which you have to choose. Where will you form government: Punjab, Uttarakhand or Goa?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Punjab we are definitely winning.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Your favourite politician: Modi or Rahul Gandhi
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: The people of this country know that very well
NAVIKA KUMAR: I asked you a question about a politician
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, I don’t talk about individuals
NAVIKA KUMAR: But you are also a part of this country
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I am only interested in the people of this country.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Modi or Rahul Gandhi? There is no escape route here.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I only care about the people of this country, not about either of them.
NAVIKA KUMAR: You may like someone between the two of them? Or do you not like any of them?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No, I don’t have anything to do with either of them. My relationship is with the people of this country and with the Lord.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Bhagwant Mann as Punjab CM or Arvind Kejriwal?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Bhagwant Mann
NAVIKA KUMAR: You didn’t tell us how many votes you got? Why are you hiding that?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Because it was never an option
NAVIKA KUMAR: Of course it was. You spoke about me, but you should tell us how many votes you got.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No that’s not needed. Leave that. Bhagwant Mann is the candidate and everyone should vote for him.
NAVIKA KUMAR: you are looking to run a smaller version of ‘Double engine’? Kejriwal here and Bhagwant Mann there?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: No I am here in Delhi. I will share my experiences about all the good things that we have done here in Delhi. We will learn from the good things they do in Punjab and we’ll work together.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Together meaning ‘Double engine’?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: We’ll run Delhi and Punjab both together. In their double engine, one faces a certain direction, the other one faces another direction and the state where they are in power unfortunately suffers. Their double engine runs in opposite directions.
NAVIKA KUMAR: The biggest issue in Punjab is that of unemployment which is higher than the national average and stands between 20-22%, in U.P it is 3% as per CMIE. So is U.P better governed than Punjab?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Forget the data, ask the people of both the states.
NAVIKA KUMAR: You are a challenger, you must have seen the data, so I am asking you.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: According to me unemployment is a big issue in the entire country and everyone should come together to find a solution. That is most important. Data says nothing. There is high unemployment in U.P, there is reasonable unemployment in Delhi too. If I say there is no unemployment in Delhi then I would be betraying the people of this city. There is unemployment in Punjab as well and everyone should come together to find a solution. Corona was a big factor in this unemployment
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you look at the issue of unemployment through the lens of Coronavirus and that it has contributed a lot?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Coronavirus has contributed a lot, many other policies have also contributed a lot. There was demonetisation, then there was something else. Before Corona hit, many other events took place and that too on a big scale. I think this is an issue on which politics must be kept aside and traders and industrialists in the country must be taken into confidence to make a national level plan.
NAVIKA KUMAR: And what about those who call industrialists viruses?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: There are good industrialists and bad ones. All industrialists are not bad. If we call all of them bad then who will run this country’s economy? This country is run by businessmen, traders and professionals. So they should be taken into confidence but one should be allowed to accumulate wealth by the wrong means. Do it the right way, with hardwork and that’s good
NAVIKA KUMAR: On march 10, who will be celebrating the grandest Holi? Arvind Kejriwal or other parties?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: It’ll be of the people of this country. Whatever be the result, it will be of the people and a victory of the people too
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you have faith in EVMs?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: I guess it’s okay. Earlier we had many doubts and suspicions, then certain developments took place. Even today I feel that EVMs can be tampered with, but it is difficult to say if they are really being tampered with.
NAVIKA KUMAR: So you don’t believe in this EVM Bahana?
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: On March 10, I am not going to be blaming EVMs for the result either way
NAVIKA KUMAR: I hope Akhilesh Yadav is listening to you but..
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Everyone has their own belief. We should how an EVM can be tampered with. I am an engineer, I understand technology, so I know that it can be tampered with. You can easily the microchip, or even the entire board. We’ve shown you how it can be changed within 3 minutes. But the question is in reality is tampering happening at such a large scale. I have my doubts on that.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Mr Arvind Kejriwal, thank you so much for Frankly Speaking with me. I hope, you give us your time after March 10 and we can then sit down and analyse what happened in this election, who won and why. So I will seek your time again after march for analysis.
ARVIND KEJRIWAL: Thank you so much.
NAVIKA KUMAR: Thank you.
